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Ebon
Benevolent Dictator For Life
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 2364
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 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: hmm |
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| GoldenPhoenix wrote: | I dunno if Ebon is still here, I assume he is:
I can understand not wanting to be a Christian; but that is not a reason to be a Luciferian (sp?). Mainly, I would like to know why you would believe in that religion. What made that a better choice than Buddhism, Wicca, or Asatru? |
I'm usually around Phoenix and besides, since this is my bit of the forums, the system mails me whenever someone replies to these topics.
You did spell "Luciferian" properly by the way.
Why believe in this faith? Because it speaks to me. Although it often seems otherwise, living in our culture of televangelists and street-corner preachers, most of us don't choose our faith from a rationalistic viewpoint. Our choice of faith (or no faith at all) is as much a gut feeling as it is any kind of measured response. Of all the faiths I've encountered or investigated, this is the one that makes me dance, this is the one that "feels" right. This is the faith where the interaction between the follower and the deity is more about earned respect and shared regard that a command to worship.
I love my god. I don't say that much because I'm the kind of person who finds it difficult to talk about his feelings but there it is. Not because of some "died for my sins" guilt-trip or because of his power but because we understand one another. We share similar principles and ideals so there is agape love. Perhaps not of the kind a Christian would recognise but it's there all the same.
I wouldn't say my faith was "better" than Wicca, Buddhism (my father is a Taoist, by the way) or Asatru. I would say only that it is a better fit for me. I found the truth for me, not necessarily for all because the connection of a person to their faith is inherantly personal and subjective, it is as much about spiritus and emotion as it is about logos and faith.
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GoldenPhoenix
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: ... |
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You just spoke now on the crux of my question... Religion from a rationalist perspective.
For me, this includes looking at religion from a scientific, philosophical, and moral perspective. So, I ask: if your God is not a just one, why do you love him?
I could never think that some primordial raging being created the universe and has infinite power. It, from my perspective, is not... Well, the purpose of God. If God needs to have his tail kicked in by Lucifer, eh, then what kind of God is he?
I mean, from a rationalist stand point, what kind of being has enough power and intellectual might to create an entire intricate universe, and then surccumb to evil? Shouldn't one who is so wise and intelligent and powerful recognise that evil is not a "good thing" --so to speak?
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Ebon
Benevolent Dictator For Life
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| GoldenPhoenix wrote: | | So, I ask: if your God is not a just one, why do you love him? |
I think my god is or, at least, would like to be. For the Christian god, well, that's quite complex. Some follow for teh simple reason that they've been told to. Probably not in those words but living in the western world, we are touched by Christianity constantly and since humans have a tendancy toward conformity (see Milgram and many others) that means at least nominal Christianity. For others, it's about fear and reward: The threat of hell and the promise of heaven. Makes no odds to me but it makes a difference to many. Some others might have personal interaction with their deity (or believe they do, never discount the possibility that we're all nuts). I haven't so I can't speak on that.
And then there are those who believe God has rescued them from a life of drink/debauchery/serial-killing/take-your-pick. I am occasionally struck by the number of fundementalists who maintain that they were terrible people before becoming fundementalists. That carries both the unspoken assumption that they are better people now (some are, many aren't) and that Jehovah was responsible for it. I find that a rather depressing view of humanity because it assumes that one is powerless in the face of one's failings. I'm a painkiller addict. I've been clean for years but I'll always be an addict and although I might draw inspiration from Lord Lucifer, I was the one that kicked the pills. Not, that's not to discount the inspiration or reassurance that one may draw from one's faith but it is to say that the individual is rather more involved than simply being saved by a deus ex machina from teh sky.
| Quote: | | I could never think that some primordial raging being created the universe and has infinite power. It, from my perspective, is not... Well, the purpose of God. |
But, according to conventional theology, God doesn't have a purpose, he simply is, like the apendix or that weird blue stuff that collects in one's navel.
| Quote: | | If God needs to have his tail kicked in by Lucifer, eh, then what kind of God is he? |
A corrupt and repressive one.
| Quote: | | I mean, from a rationalist stand point, what kind of being has enough power and intellectual might to create an entire intricate universe, and then surccumb to evil? Shouldn't one who is so wise and intelligent and powerful recognise that evil is not a "good thing" --so to speak? |
That assumes that God succombed to evil rather than being evil from the outset. I'm not a believer in intelligent design but I do believe in malevolent design: That the earth (and possibly the whole universe) was created (via evolution, abiogenesis, etc) in such a way as to ensure that humanity could just about survive but would have to struggle and suffer constantly. Because I believe that serves his sadism. Simply wiping out humanity is not as much fun for the sadist as forcing them to suffer.
As for the rest, power and intelligence are no guarentee of good character. History shows us this. Hitler was both highly intelligent and, at some points, extremely powerful and was also utterly evil. The same comments hold true for several of the Roman emperors (Caligula being the obvious example, Nero being another although he was more incompetant and opportunistic than actually evil). As for wisdom, I have yet to be convinced that Jehovah shows much wisdom. Far more, he seems to operate as a small child, a concentration of instinct, selfishness and cruelty.
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GoldenPhoenix
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: Hmm |
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Okay, but why do you believe God was evil from birth?
Granted, an idea being morbid does not make it wrong (It's a fallicious appeal to emotion), but it just does not seem, to me, like how the universe operates.
We gain understanding through the advancement of our intellect, knowledge, wisdom, compassion, love, empathy, and courage.
We are hindered by fear, ignorance, hatred, pain, and cowardice.
I guess in my life I just quit polarizing things. Its like I believe Ghandi said "What is truth? Now that is a difficult question." I believe that nothing is good or bad (I use the terms for simplicity, but I don't believe in them). It is a combination of the previous list I just gave; if it violates the positive list, then you probably should not be doing it. But life is a gaint grey scale.
No, I don't believe in god. Maybe Brahman, but that's not quite a "god", perse.
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Ebon
Benevolent Dictator For Life
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: Re: Hmm |
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| GoldenPhoenix wrote: | | Okay, but why do you believe God was evil from birth? |
Supposition from logical deduction.
Somewhere threaded amongst this was the creation of the angels and this is where God shoots himself in the foot. Being created with free will and a sense of morality, some of the angels (led by Lucifer) concluded that God was a monster and rebelled. Despite being out-numbered 2 to 1, the rebels make a decent fight of it but are eventually beaten and booted out of heaven into hell and here is where God makes his second big mistake but we'll come to that in a moment. Having created the angels, God would have known that some would rebel, ergo, the whole thing was a childish game to see who loved him more. And so we start to see God not as a being of love but as a being addicted to being loved.
God created humanity, yes? Therefore, the "design flaws" of humanity (selfishness, greed, etc) are also his responsibility. Yes, one could argue about "free will" but that's a red herring since God, being all powerful could easily have created humanity with free will but a repugnance for evil so strong, it would never happen (I know that's illogical but God is [b[all[/b]-powerful, he can do what he likes). Having included those design flaws, God then forbids humans from acting on them. Now, one could call that an attempt at damage control but if God is all-knowing, he saw this coming and therefore, chose to include those flaws. Ergo, he is responsible for them.
So, God exiles the rebels to hell. It's a matter of open debate whether hell was created for them or if it already existed but regardless, human souls start ending up there too. Because the rules that God has set are so exacting, so impossible to live up to, virtually everyone ends up in hell. Think about it: Virtually humanity's whole existance is a struggle to survive, a struggle to figure out one's moral stance and yet, threaded through this are systems of rules which are not only non-sensical (why make, for example, gay sex a sin? God doesn't have to follow rules so it can't be from any "harm principle", he simply declared it was a sin, seemingly on a whim) but often blatantly contradictory (why the commandment against murder when God himself commands numerous deaths and enacts not a few?). So, here you are, knowing little about your place in the universe, expected to live up to a set of nonsensical and contradictory rules amongst numerous competing sets of rules, judged by decisions you make on very limited information (according to conventional theology, by the time you have all the information, you're dead and it's too late) and expected to adhere to a set of impossible to attain standards which you really hit upon by blind luck. It's a crapshoot, virtually everyone is going to fail so why do it?
Because it's meant to be a crapshoot, you're meant to fail. If one accepts the existance of a God then the only logical conclusion is that humanity is meant to be confused. It is meant to fail more often than not. God is therefore a sadist but, like many sadists, he likes to be adored. How much more satisfying if that adoration comes despite your own flaws? How much more satisfying if that adoration comes from people you are (metaphorically) beating the snot out of? It's wife-battering husband syndrome. The feeling that one can abuse to your heart's content and still be loved, that one will be loved sometimes because of the abuse. We are not the children of God, we are the playthings of God. Pots, goats, sheep, this is how he describes us and, like the abusive father, he considers us his property, to do with as he likes. pots, goats, sheep, our feelings and thoughts are not even "real" to him, let alone important. He says himself that humanity was created for his glory! We are there to prop up his throne, to tell him how adored he is and take whatever he feels like dishing out.
Fuck that shit. So then, along comes Lucifer and says (as many of us would) "you're a monster". Like any dictator, God is immune to introspection and hostile to criticism so Lord Lucifer and his troops are booted into hell. And then God stops paying attention to hell. And there is the second mistake because Lord Lucifer decided to use that "free will" that God is so proud of using to dodge his responsibility and make a choice of his own: Suffer or fight. Granted, the war may be unwinnable, it may be a doomed cause but it is, at least, a moral one.
| Quote: | | I guess in my life I just quit polarizing things. Its like I believe Ghandi said "What is truth? Now that is a difficult question." I believe that nothing is good or bad (I use the terms for simplicity, but I don't believe in them). It is a combination of the previous list I just gave; if it violates the positive list, then you probably should not be doing it. But life is a gaint grey scale. |
Perhaps. But in order for a grey scale to exist, the points at either end must exist. In order for grey to exist, one must have black and white. In order for humanity to be a mixture of good and evil, those things must exist in the first place and even if God is a mixture of both, one can honestly judge that he is far more one than the other.
_________________
5150: I'm crazy, what's your excuse?
If you're not paranoid, you're not paying attention.
Waiting on the ghost of Tom Joad... |
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